| steve coleman interview |
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Dear Mr Coleman I am currently writing a dissertation exploring symmetry within harmony. On reading your essays, listening to your music and exploring your website, I have felt the need to ask for your view on the subject as I feel you would bring up some very insightful points. So far on my journey into symmetry I have explored 20th century composers such as Bartok, Schoenberg and Webern, thinking about why they felt the need to use symmetrical techniques within their music. The importance of nature and unity related to symmetry has also required room for thought. The questions I wanted to ask you are: 1. How important do you view the role of symmetry and order within music? Its very important, but not because of music. Its not just music. It is the nature of humans to recognize symmetry because symmetry is part of the process of Nature, the same Nature that created us and everything else that we know about or can sense. 2. Do you feel symmetry within music provides a link to the natural world? We are the link. Nature created humans, humans create music. I’m not trying to be funny here, we are the link, and its normal for us to create and recognize symmetry. Just look at ALL of the things that humans have created that are symmetrical. Just look at the structures we use. Look at all of the classical geometric models that we use ( i.e. circles, squares, rectangles, etc.) and even some more recent ones (i.e. fractals), they all are symmetrical concepts. But to my knowledge true exact symmetry does not exist in the Universe, just in the models that are within our imagination. In the real universe there is what we humans perceive as an approximation of symmetry. So what we are really dealing with is our perception of the Universe, not the Universe itself. And since we create ALL the tools that we use to help us to perceive this Universe, then again, we are dealing with our own perception, not the actual Universe. But we have no choice but to do this. 3. Does the universal nature of the subject hold a deeper meaning than just its transformational qualities? I’m not sure what you mean by the ‘universal nature of the subject’. Humans are structured to perceive the symmetrical qualities in Nature, and we are wired to reproduce this ourselves. And we are not alone, honey bees and many other creatures naturally produce relatively symmetrical creations. As I mentioned I see this as an issue of the structure of our perceptive abilities. 4. How have you used symmetry within your art? I mostly consider what I do a craft, a creative craft - not really an art, but I know what you mean. Like everyone else I use it all the time. The only issue is how conscious of it are you, and in my case I am conscious of it, but its not the only thing that I am conscious of, but yes, its important. Of course, as a musician I would be using this in music, if I was a mathematician I would be using this, or art if I was an artist. But it does not stop there. Humans create music, the entire concept comes from humans. And the entire concept from its structural basis is symmetrical. What I mean is this... Time, if you even believe it exists, is a continuum. Sound is a continuum. Humans are structured in such a way that in order for us to intellectually grasp a concept we need to quantize, to break it up into discrete increments and then to systematize those increments in some way. We do this with Time and we do that with Sound, in fact we do it with everything. It is the only way we can measure something in Nature. So we initially use cycles of Natural bodies (Sun, Moon, Earth, Planets, Stars, etc.) to measure the passage of Time, then we use increments of these cycles and relative cycles (such as the beating of the human heart) to measure the passage of more local and relative time. At any rate, the concepts of measuring time in hours, minutes, seconds, measures, beats (pulses), parts of a pulse; these are all examples of quantizing, and these are also examples of how humans perceive things. When it comes to sound, there is sound below anything that any human can hear and above anything that humans can hear. And that sound is part of a continuum. However for humans it is much more convenient to break that continuum up into small increments, and arrange those increments symmetrically, and even name them. There is no such thing as C or Bb, humans created this concept. And no matter what culture you look at they all have music, and where there is music there is some kind of system of tuning, no matter how crude or advanced. In all of the so-called developed ancient civilizations (Egypt, Sumer, Babylon, Indus-Valley, China, and later Greece) there was always a highly developed tuning system and the tuning system, like all the other things that humans create, is symmetrical. Our own tuning system is symmetrical, twelve-tone equal temperament (which in reality is not so equal) is an approximation of some kind of Just Intonation tuning, all of which is quantizing.. The tuning systems and temporal systems (our concepts of pitch and time) are at the base of our musical systems. These basic concepts are conceived of in symmetrical forms. Therefore, it follows that the higher-level systems that are created on top of these basic concepts have a lot of symmetry in their structure also. When you look at the great European composers (Bach, Beethoven, Stravinsky, Bartok, Per Nørgård, or the great spontaneous composers such as Charlie Parker or John Coltrane, it is normal that they would recognize this and create in these images. After all, they are human. The aim of my project is to provide symmetrical templates running throughout harmony, applying them to a creative setting. Although not directly related to the project I am also interested in how you feel symmetry can be applied to time and rhythm? That is too big a question to answer here. But suffice it to say that I recognize symmetrical forms within rhythms, the system of rhythmic modes, melody, harmony, the entire major-minor musical system, the medieval hexachord system, the tetrachord, pentachord, medieval modal systems, than ancient tetrachord, Greek Greater Perfect and Harmonai systems, instrument classifications, etc. In short, as I mentioned before, pretty much all the systems that humans create, including musical systems. I have attached a PDF file containing some diagrams constructed for the project in the hope that you may find interest or use in them. These are nice diagrams. I use a lot of these symmetrical configurations in my music. However the main thing for me is the recognition of the various concepts of balance, reciprocity and polarity in the movement and functions, not just in the structures of the pitches. I talk a little about this in these articles: http://m-base.com/symmetrical_movement.html http://m-base.com/symmetrical_movement.html#theory http://mbase.wordpress.com/2007/08/07/negative-rhythms/ http://mbase.wordpress.com/2007/08/03/symmetric-questions/ http://mbase.wordpress.com/2008/04/05/gps-and-lps-greek-and-then-medieval-theoretical-musical-structures/ http://m-base.com/sweet_science.html Rhythm helps with this because, unlike pitches represented by notation, it is very difficult to deal with the temporal domain without dealing with movement. You see, I think it is very important not to ever forget two things, that in reality all is continuous (not discreet) and that everything moves. The ancient Greeks seemed to understand this judging by the way they constructed their education system. The Quadrivium, the four subjects taught in ancient Greek and medieval universities were the four roads of arithmetic, geometry, music, astronomy. If you remember what I said about quantizing, then it should be easy to see that the number is the symbolic notation of the discrete. Then... Arithmetic is the Discrete At Rest (number itself) Geometry is the Continuous At Rest (shape, or number in space) Astronomy is the Discrete In Motion (number in motion) Music is the Continuous In Motion (shape in motion, or number in space and time) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trivium_(education) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadrivium http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martianus_Capella However I have seen another explanation which switches around the descriptions of Music and Astronomy, and this makes more sense to me... Arithmetic is the Discrete At Rest (number itself) Geometry is the Continuous At Rest (shape, or number in space) Music is the Discrete In Motion (number in motion) Astronomy is the Continuous In Motion (shape in motion, or number in space and time) Because both number and music share the characteristic of being the discrete, in other words quantized. Whereas shape is of more of a continuous nature, as is astronomy (the study of the physical universe). Although we may use number as a tool to help with the study of shapes and the physical universe, the nature of these things is continuous. But what is seldom taught is that these are only the physical accounts of the Quadrivium. There were also corresponding metaphysical equivalents that mostly dealt with mancy (i.e. divination): Numerology is the Discrete At Rest (number itself) Geomancy is the Continuous At Rest (shape, or number in space) Music of the Spheres is the Discrete In Motion (number in motion) Astrology is the Continuous In Motion (shape in motion, or number in space and time) Although I am not talking about this, the three subjects of the Trivium has the same exoteric and esoteric structure. Just to be a little more detailed... THE QUADRIVIUM (I) Physical: NUMBER The study of the structure of numerical systems, and the relationships among their constituents, including arithmetic and mathematics Metaphysical: NUMEROLOGY The study of the esoteric structure of number, its relations, symbolism and effects (II) Physical: GEOMETRY The study and measurement of physical form Metaphysical: GEOMANCY The study of the esoteric structure of form, its symbolism and effects (III) Physical: MUSIC The study of the structure of rhythmic and tonal systems, also the relationships among tones and their movements, including rhythm, melody, harmony, usually within fixed and spontaneous song. Number in motion as physical sonic energy. Metaphysical: MUSIC OF THE SPHERES The study of the esoteric structure of music and its effects. Numerology and geomancy in motion through psychic sonic energy. (IV) Physical: ASTRONOMY The study of the positions, relationships, motion and behavior of celestial objects (planets, stars and other objects in space). The Geometry of the Universe in motion as physical energy Metaphysical: ASTROLOGY The esoteric study of the energy and symbolism of the celestial objects and their spiritual effects on the affairs of humans and other creatures on Earth. The Geometry of the Universe in motion as psychic energy. Of course there is a LOT more, but that’s enough for now. Thank you for taking the time to read this email and I really hope that you can help me in my research. As a guitarist I also would like to say how much influence and joy your music and work has brought to me, with your influence leading me into this amazing subject. My regards David Greatrex Flat 7,(removed)Birmingham Nice address, ‘Flat 7’. No problem and thanks for the compliments. By the way, very soon I’m going to put online an article that is an analysis of the music of Charlie Parker that addresses some of what we are talking about. I’ll put the link up on my facebook page and also on my website
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